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Shooting from a car as a Passenger

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Diezel
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I think with the crack down on ramming cars it has become clear that the car chase is almost not existent on the server lately. I have for a long time missed being able to shoot in a vehicle. While it never made sense to me as a driver being able to do this, passengers should. This does not prevent proper initiation. However it does allow chases to happen properly. As of right now if you get into an issue of any kind and it results into a car chase, all you are doing is either waiting for a driving error or hoping the player runs out of gas. It takes away a lot of potential RP and action that makes things quite fun. I come from Serious RP servers and we always had this still. Sometimes you need to bust a cap in someone's ass or in this case tire! It could put an end to a fleeing person. It could put a shit talker to the dirt trash talking someone from a car. 

Why not the driver?

For the most part a driver wouldn't be able to properly aim a weapon unless the car came to a complete stand still. It also would end up becoming too abused in my eyes. A single driver would probably bust shots at a cop consistently in a police chase. I have seen rules made where they were only allowed to shoot forward, but that doesn't remove the issues. However I have had some amazing RP in car chases shooting as a passenger in other places. I think it would bring some great scenarios here too. If you are shooting a gun from a motorcycle it would probably cause you to swerve or possibly crash IRL, obviously depending on the gun but all guns should be on the same point. It would also be hard to aim properly and drive a car, we aren't in a Michael Bay movie. 

Duplicates 2
Shooting out of vehicles

For this one to work it needs to be unfair for the people in the vehicle.  This makes sense as they will be in a moving vehicle so its gonna be MUCH harder to shoot and be accurate.

Id suggest having the guns:

Accuracy lowered by 40%

Recoil upped by 30%

Fire rate lowered by 30%

Reload speed upped by 100% (doubled)

Having these in place means that people who just drive by shoot have a little chance to actually do a tonne of damage to them, this would extend the rp as it could lead into a gang war. 

if its a thing that could be done then I think when the vehicle is stopped that the gun should go back to normal so if after the vehicle is stopped/shotout, then people inside the car still have a chance to fight back.

Drive by

Make drive-bys possible (at least for passengers). I get that the driver shooting might be a bit too much but I don't get why the passengers couldn't. It is realistic and it could bring more RP and more interesting scenarios to the city.

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New Chance
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This is something that the leadership team has discussed and voted on multiple times and each time the decision has been to keep this feature out of the server. There's very little chance for anyone to know that a person inside of a car is going to fire a weapon or even has a weapon giving them no time to react or even know where it came from half the time. This just leads to dead end RP scenarios and doesn't allow for good interactions in a majority of cases. This will also increase the amount of staff situations from people claiming RDM from zero initiation shooting that occur from people inside vehicles.

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New Chance
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The staff met again today to discuss this and it was decided that we do not want to allow this on our server again at this time.

Replies 21
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New Chance
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The staff met again today to discuss this and it was decided that we do not want to allow this on our server again at this time.

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Zopfco
I don't doubt that it would be exciting and fun for the people doing the shooting. But it wouldn't be fun for the police who are constantly being shot at during chases if we do this, and it wouldn't be fun for the people who are gunned down in a drive by shooting, or by a person in a car who is aiming at someones head to blast them the minute they make a move or take an aggressive tone.

It feels like we're almost talking about two different things.  RDM, failing to initiate, improper escalation, rules of engagement.. all of these are basically addressing the same thing; when it's ok to resort to violence. 

Whether that violence is a baseball bat, a gun, or even a (you said it XD) attack helicopter isn't the issue. Lack of RP leading to that violence is the problem & in all honesty will continue to sometimes be a problem even if we're limited to fistfights.

Now, granted, we don't have attack helicopters because there is no real RP reason for them to be added and the potential for abuse is extreme.  That's valid.

Conversely, firing from a stationary vehicle is not a new weapon system.  There's a very good reason for allowing it; namely, not being a sitting duck simply because you're inside a car.  There are many options for limiting this further; force first person view, don't allow the driver to shoot, don't allow long guns (anything that must be unracked) to be used inside a vehicle. 

The alternate solution would be to not allow robbery/hostage taking on people in cars the same way it's restricted in shops etc but that would probably generate more tickets than allowing them to use their weapons.  

Also on the subject of police situations, I think that's also its own issue.  Police have body armor, access to heavier weapons, potentially heavier vehicles & air support.  They should have every advantage they need to handle these situations.  Perhaps the rules on re-engaging should be adjusted so this whole "PD wipe" meta is removed. IMO shooting at cops should be like kicking an anthill, at best you're looking at a manhunt and search warrants etc.  Shooting two cops in a patrol car and being on your merry way to go kick back on your front porch with a cold one should simply not happen... but again, a different issue than RDM or where/when guns work.

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2
Morgan Jones

I think not adding something because of the chance someone could do something bad with this mechanic is silly, bad things are kinda gonna happen regardless. You're never gonna please a whole server.

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KonTheGreek

Honestly, I have said this before as well. The server need drivebys to be a thing. 

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New Chance
Quote from Zopfco
do i think its a good idea in theory? yeah. do i think everyone can be trusted to use the feature properly? no

That's true, but where does that leave us? Anything in the server, particularly when it comes to PvP, has the potential for abuse.  Why have weapons at all if people might RDM with them? 

Did you even read my last reply? Pretty sure I covered a lot of the reasons there…

If we wanna go by your logic then I guess we should add attack helicopters and weaponized vehicles and just expect they players will initiate properly when using them.


Obviously we need to achieve a happy medium in order to create the type of server we want here. Somewhere between no weapons and attack choppers we’ve landed on no shooting from vehicles as our happy medium.

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Zopfco
do i think its a good idea in theory? yeah. do i think everyone can be trusted to use the feature properly? no

That's true, but where does that leave us? Anything in the server, particularly when it comes to PvP, has the potential for abuse.  Why have weapons at all if people might RDM with them? 

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soup
Shooting in a car chase... Man I can't tell you how many times I saw people jump into the staff room and want to speak to an admin the minute shots rang out in a police chase. Sometimes it was the cops shooting tires, sometimes it was the crims shooting tires, but in almost every case people were pissed off about it because it ruined their chase. Chases are not shootouts, they're chases. Driving, not shooting. So if we allow shooting from vehicles people will shoot out tires, even though its highly unrealistic that it would actually be successful IRL it does work quite well in this video game, we're gonna end up with improper escalation reports and cops being sick and tired of every chase resulting in people shooting at tires. We don't need more reasons right now for the cops to have to deal with this type of thing. Imagine how many people would just mag dump into the engine and call it a day.

this ^^^ is why i can't agree that this would be a good idea. could it make things more interesting? when it's used properly, absolutely. unfortunately, it'd be a little foolish to trust that everyone would use this feature properly.

i love a good chase - emphasis on the word good - though i feel as though this addition would lead to instances leading to player reports and/or service complaints. you'd also have to take into account that police often ride solo, and rarely are they doubled up with anyone other than cadets. it would lead to officers having to make assumptions, which is where issues would arise on the pd's side. they would have to assume that any passenger in a vehicle is going to shoot, which would lead to them shooting out tires to prevent a chase, which would lead to service complaints and/or a report - which isn't fun. that's where gunplay over roleplay would come in along with a ton of player reports.

do i think its a good idea in theory? yeah. do i think everyone can be trusted to use the feature properly? no

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New Chance
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New Chance

There are so many realistic things we don't allow because this is a video game so saying "It can happen IRL" isn't a good way to make your point. If you wanna look at it from a real life approach consider this.

Shooting a tire would at best deflate one tire, which would make driving at high speed of the pursued vehicle unpredictable.
Secondly, it is virtually impossible to take aim from one moving car to hit accurately on another moving car.
Thirdly, it has been shown by experiment that a tire hit by a bullet does not necessarily deflate.
Fourthly, only the back tires are available to be shot at in most cases.
Fifthly, a hand gun is only accurate up to about fifteen feet, even in the hands of an expert.
Sixthly, bullets from handguns likely to be used by the police are not as powerful as weapons used by the military.
Seventhly, if the police car was behind the pursuing car (as against alongside it), then it could cause the police car to crash into the pursuded car.
Eigthly, if the police car was alongside the pursued car then then it would be better to fire at the car engine.
Ninethly, if the police car was close enough to shoot at the police car it would be better (and more common) for the police car to nudge the pursued car so it spins out of control without crashing.
Tenthly, unless the chase was in daylight on an uncrowded road with a low chance of other traffic and pedestrians being affected, bullets can ricochet dangerously when they hit moving targets.
Eleventhly, TV only reflects reality in the sense that nothing is what is seems.



Remember the fact that we have, are, and will continue to push for Roleplay over Gunplay and convince us this is a good idea by telling us how allowing this to happen won't end up with a ton of rule violations and staff being so busy dealing with them that they'll never have time to play on the server themselves.

"This does not prevent proper initiation"

I am not worried about it preventing proper initiation. That's not the concern here. The concern is that it ENABLES RDM, improper escalation, and improper initiation heavily...

It enables chases to happen properly

So a proper chase is one that involves gunshots? I don't agree with that at all. A proper chase is one where you outrun the cops or you get pit maneuvered, spiked, or wreck and get arrested. THAT is a proper chase. Why do car chases need guns?

You can’t really tell if a person is aiming a gun from a car as well in real life, if he keeps it on the low. Then if he raises it up at the window, it’s the same movement as in GTA…

Again real life as compared to a video game. We're not all wearing VR headsets or playing on 32" monitors. Not all cars IRL have limo tint on the windows because you know... its illegal. The fact is, in this video game we play together almost all cars are near impossible to see inside of and if you can see inside of them good luck noticing such a minor detail as a small hand movement holding a 2px size handgun.

There are situations where it would come in handy to have this.
It just adds excitement and flare. People shoot guns from cars, it is a very realistic thing.

I don't doubt that it would be exciting and fun for the people doing the shooting. But it wouldn't be fun for the police who are constantly being shot at during chases if we do this, and it wouldn't be fun for the people who are gunned down in a drive by shooting, or by a person in a car who is aiming at someones head to blast them the minute they make a move or take an aggressive tone.

If someone is driving around with another person and they are pop shotting players, they get banned. Simple as that.

Not that simple sadly. Might be simple for the players who clip it and ship it but it takes a player report, footage, staff time, player time, discussion, logging and tracking. Its not simple and it takes our staff away from being able to enjoy more time in city. Also it will lead to people being in more tickets and from what I can see people just don't enjoy being pulled into player reports. Lets just look at the possibilities...

Drive by shooting... That's probably called RDM in most cases, or maybe improper initiation but still there would be very few cases where this would just be ok. So now the staff have to identify all of the people in the car and pull them into tickets and have them explain what happened and how they initiated.

Shooting from stationary vehicle... Well like I said above, most people won't even know you have a gun aimed at them until they're bleeding on the floor waiting for an ambulance. So then you might find yourself in a player report ticket having to explain why you pulled the trigger on someone without proper escalation.

Shooting in a car chase... Man I can't tell you how many times I saw people jump into the staff room and want to speak to an admin the minute shots rang out in a police chase. Sometimes it was the cops shooting tires, sometimes it was the crims shooting tires, but in almost every case people were pissed off about it because it ruined their chase. Chases are not shootouts, they're chases. Driving, not shooting. So if we allow shooting from vehicles people will shoot out tires, even though its highly unrealistic that it would actually be successful IRL it does work quite well in this video game, we're gonna end up with improper escalation reports and cops being sick and tired of every chase resulting in people shooting at tires. We don't need more reasons right now for the cops to have to deal with this type of thing. Imagine how many people would just mag dump into the engine and call it a day.

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1
Diezel
Quote from New Chance

What about the fact that you can't tell if someone is aiming a gun at you from inside a car? I don't know about you, but I hate being blasted in the head because someone has the ability to perfectly line up a shot on me with me having zero knowledge that they're even aiming at me. This just leads to really shit RP... why do you want this? Do you think people aren't going to use it while stationary? Not to mention all of the complaints we will get again from crims who have their tires shot out by cops...

Honestly having a gun aimed at me would make me scared for my life sure, but at the same time being unsure about it can create another type of vibe. There are situations where it would come in handy to have this. It isn't to funnel shit RP, but actually add RP. Car chases, drive by's where you are yelling back and forth. It isn't rare. There are rules put in place for people to not create shit RP. If they are they are subject to the server rules we have. If they don't initiate properly they fall ill to that. But if everything works out, and is proper, it can be really really awesome. I have memories of other places where i was in car chases shooting an uzi to someone who did me wrong. Or in a cop chase in a Bodhi and someone laying in the back popped out cop tires for us to get away. It just adds excitement and flare. People shoot guns from cars, it is a very realistic thing. If someone is driving around with another person and they are pop shotting players, they get banned. Simple as that. Things still need to be done properly. Gangs that go to war will actually be more in and out than running around the streets with guns out, as long as they are AT war of course. I see it as being very beneficial to everyone personally. 


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